More than any other director, Tom McCarthy makes it look easy. He made his debut withThe Station Agent, an ingratiating drama about a lonely dwarf and the unlikely friends he makes. was his follow-up and like The Station Agent, it was an observantly heartfelt story about a lonely man whose life is changed by perfect strange. Win Win is McCarthy's latest, and it's just as successful as its predecessors, if not more. It is abtu Mike Flaherty (Paul Giamatti), a lawyer and wrestling coach who takes unusual steps to make ends meet. Thanks to chance and Mike's good-natured wife, he finds himself taking care of Kyle (Alex Shaffer), the grandson of a client. Drama builds as Kyle settles in Mike's home and reveals his skill on the wrestling mat, but as with McCarthy's other films, the story develops organically and never hits a wrong note. With a mix of gentle humor and realistic tension, Win Win is sure to be another crowd-pleasing indie hit. I recently chatted with McCarthy and Shaffer about high school wrestling and their collaborative process.
BYT: I thought was so authentic about Alex's performance portrayal was how little you said and how little your face and body moved. That’s what teenagers do. Did that sort of stuff come naturally to you—the physical portrayal you did—or would the master tell you to play it softer or quieter?
Tom: Yea he definitely help with that and I dealt with it as well. If anything it was more of a combination of the two. There were times where he said, “play it softer,” or “play it quieter,” or “play it less stoner-ish.”
Alex: That was his favorite actually. Almost every scene he would be like, “just a little less stoner-ish.”
BYT: And you were talking about delivery or how wide your eyes were ?
Alex: Stoner McStonerton!
Tom: One time I would be like, “Hey Alex!” and he would be like, “I know, less Stoner Mc Stonerton…”
BYT: So how did you two get together? This is your first theatrical film, right?
Alex: Well, actually Tom put a cattle call in the newspaper for all high school wrestlers to come audition for this casting and my friend had texted me saying that I should do it and I was like, “No way.” Then I realized it was a one in a life time experiences, so I went in and auditioned. Then I went in and auditioned 7 or 8 more times and got the role.
BYT: So you were actually a wrestler?
Alex: Yea. I was a High School wrestler.
BYT: How does your High School record compare to the character you play?
Tom: He was actually a State Champion.
Alex: Yea, actually my record was 33-0. Oddly enough, I did have a better record than Kyle did, even though Kyle is pretty good.
Tom: Everything you see there is pretty legit.
BYT: How did your relationship with your coach compare to your relationship with Tom when you were filming?
Alex: I have a much better relationship with Tom. I’m close with my coaches, but I’m not as close. I’ve just spent a lot more personal time with Tom.
BYT: Now that you got a taste of acting, do you think you will stick with it?
Alex: I recently got a manager and an agent, so I’ve been auditioning around and feeling it out. So yeah, I’m going to start acting.
BYT: An agent? Man, you’re fully into it. So, Tom. What is your scripting process like? How do you come up with some of the ideas for the films you do?
Tom: It usually varies from film to film, but inevitably it starts with a character or two. I’m very character driven, I guess opposed to a genre or plot driven writer. Early on I had this idea of a young very talented wrestler and then sort of found Mike Flaherty and oddly enough Joe - who I developed the story with - is a childhood friend and we used to wrestle together on the New Providence High School team. He is also an Elder Law attorney who lives in New Providence and is married with two little girls. I think I was kind of cherry picking things from his life and we would go back and forth and just talking about it. It was sort of like talking to the beginning of a character. Then, after that, we sort of came up with this character of Mike Flaherty. So, I think it always starts with that and then you build the world from there. But, with this film I was trying to expand on what I have done in the past. I was trying to deal with a few more story lines, I was trying to deal with a movie that sort of operates as sort of a family drama, a buddy flick, and bit of a sports genre. I was trying to find a way to marry all these threads in a way that felt totally consistent, which is always the biggest challenge in film making—finding that tone that the audience feels like they are in good hands with.
BYT: To me that tone was “optimism.” Even the “bad” character like Kyle’s mom, you can’t totally hate her as a human being though she is a screwed up person. So, everybody in there has depth.
Tom: I think there is a time where Jackie — Mike’s wife — is being obstinate and close minded and judgmental and I think they all has those moments. Even when casting Melanie Lynskey as a roll of Cindy—Kyle'ss Mom—I didn’t want someone walking through that door there audiences would expect. I wanted someone that people were like, “Wow, she’s almost kind of cute, right?” What happened when she was young she kind of got off track, had a kid way too young, and obviously has a problem with drug addiction. So, I think we are constantly trying to be relentless in rewriting and rewriting and finding dimension and challenging anywhere where I feel like I go lazy with developing the character. As a writer, you do that. You’ll be like, “Oh, that’s a good idea.” But really it wasn’t a good idea, it was just a comfortable idea at the time. Sometimes you need to do that, you need to push through a draft and you’ll be like, "Ok I’ll come back to that." Like with Terry, Bobby’s character, I tried to layer in language that was very financially driven like at the end where he was talking Mike about her opening up the kimono and making her eat the trade. It’ll be like, “what the fuck are you talking about?” I have a brother who does that. He is in the financial industry, and we will be having these very intimate personal conversations and then he’ll be breaking it down in this corporate vernacular and I’ll be like, “what does that mean?” So I’ll go back and handle that sometime on the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 10th pass at the script.
BYT: Do you continue to write after an actor has been cast for the part? I can imagine and actor can kind of shape and mold how a character develops.
Tom: Absolutely. I mean, many times after I finish a solid draft I will have an idea of who I want to play the role, but for people like Alex who have a very specific personality I will tailor it a little. Probably not that much, I think we changed a few things in rehearsal like calling characters by the first name, like when he calls her Jackie or call him Mike. I don’t think the editor could even get past that part without laughing. Just the way a young person would call an adult by there first name was very funny and was done in a way that didn’t show disrespect, but just that’s how they see them. But yea, I do do that a bit. That’s what I use rehearsals for. My rehearsals aren’t really about getting a scene write or preparing an actor. It’s about preparing a company for shooting and a lot of that is me tailoring the writing and the script to what I’m hearing and getting feedback from the actors. Like them being like, “This feels like more than I have to say” but good actors will just skip it and be like, “yea, I don’t need to say that.”
BYT: Did you have to say that to Alex?
Tom: That’s a good question. You know what he would do, he would stumble over lines sometimes. And it wasn’t him, he spoke perfectly fine, but usually that is a good indication that the line needs to be chopped down and changed.
Alex: Sometimes I would do things and speed through lines.
Tom: Which everyone does to be fair.
BYT: If tomorrow a studio gave you $50 million dollars for your next movie, would you start cooking up all these ideas for visual effects? Or, would you say no thanks I want to tell the story in a small way and not let any of that mess it up.
Tom: I mean, I’ve had offers to do big movies from all these big studios doing cool stuff and you do think about it, but at the time I just didn’t have a connection with the material and I was very determined to make “Win Win.” I have only made three movies. It’s not a lot. To the average Joe on the street it is, but I’m still learning. Creating material, writing material, being inside the material is incredibly helpful to me in that way because I know I can connect to it emotionally in that way. Everyone makes mistakes. It’s a difficult job, but I’m inside it and that helps a lot.
BYT: Can we talk about Paul Giammati just for a second? I’d like to know how your relationship evolved with him off camera? I have a feeling this guy could do this in his sleep.
Alex: Yea, I hope so. He was just fantastic and when he wasn’t doing the scene he would just walk around doing the lines in his head—and he kinda looked insane—but at the same time you could tell he was very focused and was a great actor. I really respect him. I really like Paul, he is a good guy.
Tom: Paul is always great. He takes it very seriously and works very hard. He leaves no stone unturned. What I think was wonderful for me to experience—knowing Paul for a long time—is what I kind of quietly here is that on set he just has an amazing attitude. You can just feel that on set and you need that. It’s long hard hours and the crew has a great respect for him, and when you have the respect of your crew, you are just going to make a better movie. These guys work a lot, they work hard, they work long hours, but when they feel connected to the project it just makes everything about the film better and I think Paul was responsible for that ultimately. People just like him. He loves his job, he takes it seriously, and he’s damn good at it. People like being around that—its infectious.
BYT: You mention Bobby Cannavale earlier. It seems like you guys have a very good working relationship and really bring out the best in one another. What is it about him that you like in particular?
Tom: I just get a kick out of him. He is just a funny dude. I know him very well he is a dear friend of mine. I met him about 15 years ago when we were in a play together and we’ve been hanging around ever since. We just have a similar sense of humor and a similar sensibility. I get him and it’s easy for me to direct him; he doesn’t have an ego about it and get defensive. He’s very good at taking direction. Any good director likes direction. There has to be that third eye and there needs to be trust, but I know that’s what I like as an actor. Because you’re not moderating yourself or watching your performance, you need to trust someone to guide you a little bit. It can be a very freeing feeling. With Paul it was less about being good, because he’s is great all the time, but more about keeping him on character all the time because his character was so buttoned down. He couldn’t be as dynamic as the others.
BYT: Did you start courting him for this while shooting Duplicity?
Tom: No, I sat down with Paul after American Splendor and we had chat about his performance and some parts that I loved. You know that scene where there are just actors and there is that surreal moment where Harvey was in the film and they were just hanging out. He was like, “that was me!” and I was like, “yea, I know!” I love that movie and I loved him in it, but just with time and we were both working a lot nothing worked out. But, when I finished this movie I sent it to him and he said, “I’ll read it on the plane” and I said great, “I’ll see you at Thanksgiving because your wife invited me.” That was kind of weird because I saw him the next day and I was like, “Did you read it?” But it was great, then we just sat down and talked about it on his couch. There wasn’t really much fanfare about it.
BYT: Do you feel like with these relatively low budget movies that you have more freedom as a director and that the actors feel like they have less pressure because they are in their element?
Tom: I don’t think there is less pressure for any of us because we take ourselves very seriously and for a movie this like this to get out there and be successful at any level it’s almost like we are a small sports team—we have to play a perfect game and everything has to work. With big movies you have big stars and huge budgets and lots of access and if you spend $60 million dollars on a movie, they will spend another $20 to $30 million dollars on advertisement in order to protect their investment. That’’s not going to happen with a $5 to $10 million dollar budget—you are just going to disappear. Budget has nothing to do with the quality of a movie, as you know, and we take our job seriously, but I think you did hit on something, keeping our budget down does give you some autonomy. They basically left me alone. They gave me my money, asked me what I was doing, and told me to go make my movie. They would chime in every once in awhile with notes, but they really trusted me. Now, with a $60 million dollar movie would I have a few more people hanging around? Absolutely. But, you know, its difficult to make a movie and it’s even harder when you are constantly defending yourself because you don’t have all the answers in this process—you are still discovering that. So that can really muddy the waters when you are defending while you are still processing and exploring all the way through the editing processes.
BYT: Is this going to open really wide? Is this going to be in suburban multiplexes?
Tom: No, they will platform it. That’s what Searchlight does and I think that’s what they do really well. I think we are in very good hands and we did what we do well and now they will do what they do really well and get the movie out there to audiences. How they do that is their job, but I think they will platform it and have it play in LA and New York next week, then five more cities and markets, and then hopefully get some good press and build on that.
BYT: What do you mean hopefully? I think this is one of the first great movies of the year.
Tom: We are really excited. I think they are getting the sense that they are getting a lot of good feedback. I mean, they are a small company. Mostly what they do is small movies, but they are incredibly smart. You sit in a room with 20 or so people and they just have a system down and they just love movies.They are very passionate people, they have great ideas and then run with it, they are not afraid to make strong choices. They did a great job on the trailer. They had a company Geronimo out of New York make it and they asked if I could come in and tweak it for a few days. So, I went in with my dog and spent two days in the edit room with those guys and we ended up creating something even better and they were like, “Hey, great job.” Not everyone is so inclusive. I think that is very smart of them.
BYT: Was it different making a movie with Giammati—not because of who he is—but because he is a little bit different then say, Richard Jenkins or Peter Dinklage, in a sense that they are career supporting guys and that Paul is a well known lead?
Tom: He is now! But if you look at Paul’s first 20 credits, we used to joke and be like, “Hey, that’s the guy I played, we found him!” We all have our roles that we have done in like 10 movies before we get three lines.
Alex: Yea, man.
Tom: Paul put in his time and he just broke through because he is so damn good. I think American Splendor was one of those. Then he got a couple other great ones like Sideways and then he kind of goes back into character mode. He has a very unique career. But to me, I feel he has maintained that everyman quality that is a little bit intangible.
BYT: There is a theme that runs through your movies—and I’ve been wondering if it was intentional—in all your movies there seems to be this theme of kind of finding family wherever you can.
Tom: I think that is a theme if I were accused of I’d have to admit to that. I do like that idea. Maybe because I’ve moved around so much, I mean I have a great family, but as an adult I move around so much I am always redefining my social circles. Some of it has to do with my job, some of its where I live, and some of it maybe me. Maybe age? At different ages, people peel off and start partnering up and I’ve always found that really interesting how it influences you. It’s something like, “Wow, I have a whole new group of friends that I didn’t have 5 years ago.” I love the randomness of people coming into your life. Like this guy [points to Alex].
Alex: Yea.
Tom: We were just talking about that. How we have been spending a lot of time together.
BYT: Do you want him to pursue this business that chews up people and spits them out?
Tom: I do. He seems passionate about it and he’s really good at it, but I think it’s best to proceed with caution . I don’t mean that to scare him or anyone, but we all know that for a lot of very talented people. it takes a long time to hit. Part of that is just finding good people to be around and to trust family and friends. It’s hard to give advice; you start to appreciate why parenting is so hard!
Win Win opens in theaters today.
Previously in BYT interviews:
- 5/18: INTERVIEW: Jasmine Solano
- 5/18: Interview: Richard Linklater
- 5/17: Interview: Penguin Prison
- 5/16: Interview: Brian Regan
- 5/15: Richard Davies (Cardinal) Interviewed by Archie Moore
- 5/11: Interview: Horse Feathers' Justin Ringle
- 5/10: Reflections on a Conversation with Mickey Avalon
- 5/9: Inside the STYLELINER
- 5/8: The Politics of Mastodon
- 5/4: Preview: Mucca Pazza @ The Kennedy Center's "Look Both Ways" Festival
God loves a cheerful giver.
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